/////Wide gamut display and process flow
Wide gamut display and process flow2013-03-17T09:13:57+02:00

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Wide gamut display and process flow

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  • niella
    Participant
    Post count: 1

    Hi there,

    My workflow has evolved to the point where I am considering the use of a 27″ or 30″ display, and I consider myself a serious amateur. I am currently making use of a non-thunderbolt 17″ MacBook Pro and run OSX, but have plans to replace this with a 15″ Retina at a later point.

    My workflow involves LightRoom 4 and Nik s/w on Mountain Lion, and I would like to properly cater for large canvas size prints of landscapes, wildlife and some portraits. Ultimately, I suppose I will only print 10-25% of my photo’s so sRGB remains an important capability.

    Anyhow, I must first state that I am out of my depth when it comes to making a truly informed decision on a wide gamut display, since I have no practical experience in soft proofing or printing. After a lot of research I planned to either get the U2713H or especially the new U3014 Dell UltraSharp, but I am aware that there are some complications to a wide gamut display.

    The main issue is that I frequently read about issues with wide gamut support in operating systems (for example, Apple ColorSync is 8-bit only), and I admittedly do not have enough knowledge to know if I will gain the true benefit should I plan to use a 15″ retina MacBook Pro with the Dell, also in terms of compatibility. So while I am hoping to exploit the wide gamuts through LR4, I fear that I might encounter other issues that end up not justifying the effort to manage yet another aspect of photography, and then also end up having to buy a colorimeter.

    For the sake of brevity I will only mention one particular comment that caught my eye: http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=161496

    Karl Lang – “A wide gamut LCD display is not a good thing for most (95%) of high end users”

    Is there someone already making use a wide gamut display that can comment on this topic in terms of the practical benefits? Is it worth the time / money / effort to get a wide gamut display unless you are truly doing professional printing services? 🙂

    The easy way out would be to simply buy the Apple Thunderbolt for best compatibility, but as far as I know it is… nice looking but somewhat inaccurate in terms of its colour space.

    Many thanks in advance….
    Niël

  • Forgiss – Sean Nel
    Participant
    Post count: 6513

    There seems to be a fe 24″ displays from Dell that gets very high ratings… I am looking at one of those because my mac system doesn’t yet run thunderbolt 🙁

  • jayson
    Participant
    Post count: 127

    I am also looking to change my display. I have been romanced by the retina display on my ipad3 and was looking for a windows equivalent. I use lightroom 4 on Windows 8. I am concerned about editing on a display that renders differently on my website when viewed by the customer. I was considering the Dell Ultrasharp models.

  • Dave_
    Participant
    Post count: 472

    A wide gamut display will usually display all, or nearly all of the Adobe colour space. Standard gamut display often only cover far less than 100%, and some dont even cover sRGB fully.

    So, how does a wide gamut display help you? Well, mostly for those who will be printing a lot. The CMYK printer gamut is bigger than the sRGB colour space (especially in the greens), so you can’t correctly soft proof an image that has colours your display cant show. The Adobe colour space can show almost all of these colours.

    This is of course only important if your final image is not “downgraded to sRGB” for print and is already in the Adobe colour space. And assuming you have a high end printer than is not constrained by sRGB. It really depends on what printer you output to and what colours it supports. Most commercial printers only accept prints in sRGB anyway. So this really depends on your situation.

    Will you see the difference? Well, as a serious amateur, who will possibly be selling your prints? Then yes, probably. The average joe, not likely.

    I have worked on a wide gamut display for quite some time, and I must say I love it. At least you have the option to proof for a more limited space like sRGB or for a high end inkjet that exceeds sRGB.

    I hope that makes sense.

  • Forgiss – Sean Nel
    Participant
    Post count: 6513

    You know what is the problem with wide Gamut displays? They are like Canon L lenses…

    Once you’ve played or worked with them, it just feels wrong working with anything else, and you keep on making excuses until you have one in front of you on the desk…

  • Skyelark
    Participant
    Post count: 212

    The Dell ultrasharps aren’t professional wide gamut displays – those cost R15-20k or more and offer an end to end colour ready guaranteed solution. The dells are very good though!
    The main issue with wide gamut displays is non colour aware/ready programs cant display colour correctly , mac handles this problem better than PC but not perfectly. PS and LR Aperture etc , any professional imaging program will run fine with a wide Gamut display , though you may need to specify in the programs settings the correctly calibrated monitor profile. I have the Dell U2410 , very happy with it.

  • jayson
    Participant
    Post count: 127

    Anyone in Durban got a wide gamut display . I would like to see one on action before I make a decision to get one.

  • SteveG
    Participant
    Post count: 616

    Most of what you need to hear has already been said. As with most photographic purchases: buy the best you can afford.

    You MUST calibrate and profile it well.

    I’ve been using a wide gamut Dell U2410 for about 2 years now – very happy. Will upgrade to a NEC when I can afford it, just a shame they’re so overpriced here.

    Editing/adjusting/soft-proofing for print is just so much easier when you are using wide gamut. Very much worth it if the print process is not limited to sRGB gamut.

  • Forgiss – Sean Nel
    Participant
    Post count: 6513

    Steve… quick question:

    You often see statements like the one about the panel of the 2410 being the same as the one in certain Apple cinema displays, but… even being the same panel, is it as good?

    How big a role does the internal software play?

  • SteveG
    Participant
    Post count: 616

    I have no idea about what panel is in my monitor. I have heard that both Dell and Apple are prone to switching panels mid-range: The same monitor but halfway through the product life they switch panel suppliers. Nothing sinister, just economics I suppose.

    In the past Apple screen have shared panels with HPs, Dells and maybe some others. Apple displays always looked nice and glossy but were not always the best of the bunch. All hearsay, so dig through flatpanels.de if you feel the desire to follow up.

    You could have the same panel, with different backlights: LED vs Flouro. that would make a difference.

    Really don’t know much about the internals of monitors except to say that most cheapies are 6-bit, better ones are 8-bit and very few expensive ones are 10-bit. A full-blown 10-bit card-to-monitor workflow is very hard to set up, apparently. (and impossible on a Mac, I’ve read. search on LuminousLandscape.) More bits gets you better gradation, less banding in smooth transitions after calibration.

  • jayson
    Participant
    Post count: 127

    Where does one purchase a wide gamut display ?

  • SteveG
    Participant
    Post count: 616

    You can get the Dell screens from just about any Dell reseller. I got mine from Landmarkpc.co.za. Make sure you do your research well and get your model number absolutely correct before ordering as Dell naming conventions are not helpful. The U2410 and U2711 are definitely wide gamut.

  • jayson
    Participant
    Post count: 127

    Thanks Steve. I tried landmarkpc.co.za. They don’t have any wide gamut monitors. Any other ideas.

  • SteveG
    Participant
    Post count: 616

    netsurit?

    bought my baby dell (23 inch, skinny gamut) from them a few years ago.

    phone dell directly and ask them for a reseller that stocks the wide ones? they no longer sell direct

    try hunting for HPs too. Not sure if SamsungLG sell wides.

  • John Mullineux
    Participant
    Post count: 63

    I bought my wide gamut Asus via Wootware. Very happy with screen and service/delivery. Asus P246Q IPS if I remember the code.

  • nidri
    Participant
    Post count: 122

    A liitle off topic, but whichever way you go, make sure the monitor you buy has a DisplayPort input.
    When you do get round to buying that 15″ Retina Macbook, connection to the external screen can be done with a Thunderbolt>Displayport cable. (‘Thunderbolt’ = ‘Mini-DisplayPort’) Never again will you have to muck about with VGA, DVI or any of those bulky adapters. Just one, simple cable.

  • jayson
    Participant
    Post count: 127

    OK, I was able to track down a Dell Ultrasharp U2713H which is meant to be a wide gamut monitor for testing. I am using a AMD Firepro v3900 graphics card and Windows 7. I cannot see the difference. Is there a way to test that I have got it on wide gamut display settings ? I am using the display port and have set the card to 10-bit pixel format. (Have Lightroom 4 and Photoshop CS5)

  • SteveG
    Participant
    Post count: 616

    Calibrate and profile it first, of course. If you can’t then hunt around and install the generic dell profile for the monitor as your system profile.

    Pick an image in a wide space like ProPhoto with lots of saturated colour. Convert it to sRGB in PS. Watch the saturated colour disappear. Can’t see that change on a skinny gamut monitor.

    Lots of real-world colours fall within the narrower range of sRGB so the difference between the U2713H and an sRGB gamut monitor may not be immediately apparent. Depends what you shoot. If you are shooting red sports cars or bright flowers the difference will be very apparent.

    Edit: if you’ve got the screen profiled you can compare its gamut to other gamuts using this:
    PerfX Gamut Viewer

  • Callie Muller
    Participant
    Post count: 76

    See the last post was a long time ago
    Anyway, as a very enthusiastic amateur I bought the Asus AP246Q a while ago. Cost me R 6 000. Admittedly, it is a very high quality IPS monitor, but once the picture it leaves your screen you are back to sRGB for the Web and printing
    Also, I have been told that it is better to edit in sRGB on screen and export in sRGB in LR 5 rather than edit in RGB (or prophoto) and then export in sRGB in LR 5. It seems the conversion to sRGB distorts the colours. A few Google searched confirmed this
    Looks like I have wasted a few thousand R’s

  • Dave_
    Participant
    Post count: 472

    I certainly wouldnt say you have wasted money. The fact is that an IPS monitor is way more consistent/accurate colour wise than a regular screen (say TN for example). Especially when calibrated properly.

    Whether you edit in sRGB or Prophoto, at least you know your colours are accurate. You cant control how others see your images on the web, but this makes a big difference when going to print.

    You can bet that most pro’s have IPS panels, so I think you can rest easy and perhaps just learn how best to use the system you have.

  • Callie Muller
    Participant
    Post count: 76

    Thanks Dave. Are you saying that for printing I would be better off using RGB or ProPhoto when editing and exporting ?
    The difference between sRGB and RGB on my Asus AP246Q monitor is like day and night. RGB is so much better (or ProPhoto)
    What should I use for uploading to ODP ?

  • Forgiss – Sean Nel
    Participant
    Post count: 6513

    Anything web based tends to display better for all ages of computers in sRGB

  • Dave_
    Participant
    Post count: 472

    As Sean said. For web, almost all displays will support srgb, so this is the best colour space for the web. If you use another space, your image will not look as you intend. For commercial printing, this depends on what the printer will accept. Generally this is sRGB as this is what their printers are usually set up for.

    However, you can chat to them and ask if you can submit a tiff rather than jpg, and using Adobe RGB. Which will cover most colors. I am willing to bet you wont find a commercial printer that prints in Prophoto. I dont think there are any printers that covers this range in any event.

    Best to reach out to SteveG on this forum, he is the local forum expert on printing/colorspace.

  • SteveG
    Participant
    Post count: 616

    Howdy!

    I live in ProPhotoRGB and most of my print work is converted straight from this into the paper profile. 16-bit all the way, whenever possible.

    But I’ll print accurately from anything AS LONG AS THE CORRECT COLOUR SPACE IS EMBEDDED IN THE FILE. If I don’t have that then PS and my print software does not have the context to display and print your colour correctly.

    For web: convert to sRGB and embed the profile.

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