Is this Fair2008-01-14T18:14:33+02:00

Is this Fair

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  • Peter Betts
    Participant
    Post count: 1250

    I am a new pro photographer 8 months on my own and I really battle for business…but PE is a real backwater as far as business goes Charge over R3000 for a wedding and you are dismissed as a rip off (East london the going rate is R4000-R6000 and the RIP off barrier is reached at about R8000 as afair comparison. JHB the starting rate is about R6900 I Learnt at the Montecasino Course. Anyway I belong to a chapter of Business Network International and was given a lead to do the photography at a “Major Type” event at a large conference location (Marine Hotel) I sent my quote to the event coordinator for the period 07h30 to 10h00 in Feb. I quoted R1500 for 3 hrs at the event INCLUDING the processing in PS of 100 images and putting them on CD. The coordinator then phoned me last week to ask if I could do this for free and have my name on the program!!!!!! Bearing in mind this is my first income for the year. I told her no I need to eat and pay Varsity fees and need R15000 per month for Insurance (no cameras), Med Aid (Hospital Plan etc) and R3500 pm for my bottom of the range Corolla. She then came back inan email today to say there is another photographer that will do it (2 hrs ) for R700 (The event is 2.5 hrs and I being professional like to get there early thats why I charged R500 per hr) I need the money and matched this “Photographer” in price. What do you guys think how would you have reacted

  • Anonymous
    Post count: 0

    Tell her to use the other photographer. The time and money you waste chasing those kind of clients isn’t worth the phone-bull (correct spelling) 😉

  • KCLouCorbett
    Participant
    Post count: 1699

    Peter

    I hope you requested to see the other photographer’s quote as it is a good tactic of organisers to get a better price.

  • Anonymous
    Post count: 746

    Sounds like you’ve been shafted Peter 🙁

  • JohnTen
    Participant
    Post count: 262

    Well all I can say is pack your backs and move to Gangsters Paradise:D

    or charge 10K then it will cover your traveling at least.

    For the people in Cape town how is business there:confused:

    Well I’m not having a bad years start bookings is coming in so far.

  • G D Lane
    Participant
    Post count: 2321

    Without considering the one single fact “…I need the money….”, you shot yourself in the foot here by dropping 50% in the tariff you wanted to charge! A 10% drop ok, but 50%, will have some repercussions in future as the same person will always negotiate with you from a basis that you “over charge” by 50% and will start counter offers at 50% below your fee. This same person will also refer you but will inform people that they must watch for you as you “over charge” by 50%.

    As I said, stick to your guns initially but do build in some leeway during negotiations. Never drop by 50%!

  • Missy
    Participant
    Post count: 1072

    Geurt;86513 wrote:
    Without considering the one single fact “…I need the money….”, you shot yourself in the foot here by dropping 50% in the tariff you wanted to charge! A 10% drop ok, but 50%, will have some repercussions in future as the same person will always negotiate with you from a basis that you “over charge” by 50% and will start counter offers at 50% below your fee. This same person will also refer you but will inform people that they must watch for you as you “over charge” by 50%.

    As I said, stick to your guns initially but do build in some leeway during negotiations. Never drop by 50%!

    Thanks Geurt and others …luckily she is not one of the top thought of organisers in PE so probably wont be around for long as she has messed people around before but she informed me emphatically that the business would go elsewhere if I didnt match..I wonder why she kept stalling as she says she only got my quote today and I FIRST emailed it to her in Nov…She just wanted to strategise screwing suppliers with the client who appointed her…it all falls into place now . I have emailed her to ask for the quote. Geurt this is more than a 50 % drop thats why I am really mad and I am really pissed off. I joined this organisation a few months and slowly started feeling positive about it but if this is how they will treat me well I think I will see it thru and just lapse the whole thing …its a pity as they wont get a pro photog like me in a hurry…PE ahas PLENTY of Fly by night “Pro” Photogs. I HATE Dishonesty and dubious business practices…Now its a charity event all of a sudden can you believe it and I am made to feel bad that R 700 is R700 too much…but Geurt I do need the money. Will probably let Levin the big guy in Cape Town know what goes on in PE the way I am feeling….they are so desperate for members in these chapters that they sometimes take on dodge members to make up the numbers…at least we have a great coordinator in our group…pity she wasnt given the job in the first place then this unprofessional shambles wouldnt have happened

    Thanks guys for your input I feel that I am not such a bad guy after all…I just got screwed by a shady setup:mad: 😡

  • G D Lane
    Participant
    Post count: 2321

    As I said, the one single fact is the issue of your immediate need, that kept you there.

    The one other issue that is crucial in a good deal is the single fact that both parties in the equation must feel that they have a bargain. If that is not the case, contract rot results. You already feel that way, just get out of it and rather use that energy to “retaliate”, to find the next appointment.

  • Missy
    Participant
    Post count: 1072

    Geurt;86513 wrote:
    Without considering the one single fact “…I need the money….”, you shot yourself in the foot here by dropping 50% in the tariff you wanted to charge! A 10% drop ok, but 50%, will have some repercussions in future as the same person will always negotiate with you from a basis that you “over charge” by 50% and will start counter offers at 50% below your fee. This same person will also refer you but will inform people that they must watch for you as you “over charge” by 50%.

    As I said, stick to your guns initially but do build in some leeway during negotiations. Never drop by 50%!

    I dont think I will ever do business with her again and I certainly wouldnt recommend her to anyone again

  • Missy
    Participant
    Post count: 1072

    Geurt;86524 wrote:
    As I said, the one single fact is the issue of your immediate need, that kept you there.

    The one other issue that is crucial in a good deal is the single fact that both parties in the equation must feel that they have a bargain. If that is not the case, contract rot results. You already feel that way, just get out of it and rather use that energy to “retaliate”, to find the next appointment.

    Geurt I need lots of R1500 jobs per month to get to R15000 budget (10 such jobs a month!!!) At R700 I would need 22 such jobs ie one EVERY working day…that aint going to happen in PE with that lets screw the good guy attitude.but we will overcome just got to move in more professional and business astute circles…ja I really walked into this one:D

  • Anonymous
    Post count: 746

    Isnt it that time of year when schools need year book photos?

  • francoisvdm
    Participant
    Post count: 679

    I found the following usually works out ok for me. To use an example like yours:

    3 hours on site, plus travel plus CD plus delivery plus 100 PS images = R1500.

    I can give you the following for R700-00:
    Last 2 hours of the event, plus travel, you pick up the CD and no PS on the images, raw from camera.

    My motto, never give any discount for nothing.

  • Laurette
    Participant
    Post count: 252

    @peter R Betts 86527 wrote:

    I dont think I will ever do business with her again and I certainly wouldnt recommend her to anyone again

    Recommend me to her – with my crappy photos it would be the best revenge!:D

  • Vanderw
    Participant
    Post count: 110

    @francoisvdm 86534 wrote:

    I found the following usually works out ok for me. To use an example like yours:

    3 hours on site, plus travel plus CD plus delivery plus 100 PS images = R1500.

    I can give you the following for R700-00:
    Last 2 hours of the event, plus travel, you pick up the CD and no PS on the images, raw from camera.

    My motto, never give any discount for nothing.

    I agree . . . when you buy a “TV, DVD PLAYER AND AMPLIFIER AND GET A FREE PROJECTOR FOR ONLY R30 000” special, do you really think that you’re actually getting the Projector for free? NO CHANCE . . . its all worked into the price somewhere. You get nothing for nothing . . . I agree with Geurt, there is such a thing as a discount (10%-15%) . . . anthing else becomes a genuine give-away . . . and that is something even big businesses that can afford it, dont do.

    Go with Francois rather. . . “what’s your budget? . . . ok, this is what I can offer you.”

  • suzette
    Participant
    Post count: 3056

    Welcome to the world of the pro photographer. 😡 There is always somebody with a entry level DSLR and kit lens who will undercut you.

    I have lost plenty jobs that way. Stick to your guns, and your price. In fact I suggest you raise your price to R1000.00 per hour, then you don’t need to do as many jobs to make ends meet. You set the standard and the rate.

    I had a client who today said to me they pay 60 days. I said I’m not a bank, if they want to pay 60 days they have to pay 15% extra. They agreed.

    Don’t let them tread all over you, and don’t let them set the terms. Get them to pay what you are worth.

    NEVER do a job because you need the money. It creates a president and it makes you negotiate from a position of weakness. Make it look like you are doing them a favour by accepting the job, not the other way round.

  • Nardus Nel
    Participant
    Post count: 392

    markthomas;87196 wrote:
    NEVER do a job because you need the money. It creates a president.

    I assume you are talking about JZ ! Oh, I see you meant precedent.:)

  • G D Lane
    Participant
    Post count: 2321

    j-ms;87208 wrote:
    I assume you are talking about JZ

    Nope, MT did not refer to showers and shower caps.

    j-ms wrote:
    ! Oh, I see you meant precedent.:)

    Heheheheheh……..

  • sam ellis
    Participant
    Post count: 144

    Peter,

    OK I am not in the photography income market, but in our market, web development we have often come across this.

    Maybe you must look at this in a different light, that of a marketing opportunity. You say you are new in the business, and still battling to get work?

    Why not go back to them, agree to sponsor the photography for the event, and bring in some conditions. For example your name on the program, a small imprint on the photographs etc, with enough to ensure you get the exposure. Also maybe add that they carry the printing cost.

    You have already lost the job, the other chap might get it. You won’t make any money out of it, and will most prob by sitting at home watching TV.

    I would say if you hunting for work, you can use these kind of events as an excellent marketing opportunity, after all, in the photography market your photos are your brochures!

    We have done MANY websites in similar situations, my take on it has always been that if we don’t sponsor it somebody else will. If somebody does the job they get the exposure. We want the exposure. After all, your actual cost is not R3k. Your cost is most probably your time, and if you don’t have work for that day then your time is not worth anything in any case.

    Just a thought.

  • musaristo
    Participant
    Post count: 293

    Peter, you should do a wedding here. If you’re at the wedding the whole day (including the party afterwards) count on at least R20.000 for the day, and you can then charge R5.000 for the photobook.
    And you are far from the most expensive then, just a beginner!

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